I began looking into translations of the Bible comparing them in May of the year 2000, before Seminary, when I still lived in Malmö. In February that year, during school winter holidays (a tradition since the harsh winters of WW2), there had been a bit of a local scandal. Some Free churches together with an American “Impact Tour” called New Generation International, had arranged a kind of Soul-fishing with Rock music cum Body Building at the Baltic Hall (itself a survivor of the Baltic Exposition 1914).
I’m so sorry I wasn’t there – it must have been awful!
“Bloody Beef”, posing to Rock music, exclaiming at intervals: I am so gloriously saved!
During the event an American Pastor-let, 20 years of age, had put forward the idea that “homosexuality is a sin which deserves death”…
He hadn’t made this up by himself though; it’s in the NIV…
The scandal was immediate. The hapless youngsters in the audience, who had been snared by the soul-fishing event unawares, went home to tell their parents. The parents called the newspapers (there were still two of them in Malmö), which produced whole pages about it, and there were Letters to the Editors for the rest of the Semester.
In May or early June there was, yet again, a Letter to the Editor, this once more theologically savvy than the majority. Written by a Pentecostal Pastor in northern Skåne, it tried to defend the pastor-let. The author referred to 1 Cor 6:9-11 as the relevant passage.
So I grabbed my Swedish State Bible 1981/2 (new NT 1981, plus, mostly linguistic changes to the OT). The one with big letters, which I had bought due to my failing eye-sight when I arrived at Lund...
I tried to find the method in 1 Cor 6:9-11, to catch the structure behind the words, for I knew from the Exegetical lectures that there would be one – as, for instance, in Matthew – the school of Matthew, late Bishop Stendahl calls it – symmetrically built around a peak in the centre (the Mount Sion Principle, our old Professor called it, contrasting it to the end-climax of Modern detective stories ;=)
The Professor was so ancient he had known the first family in the then British Palestine Mandate, who spoke Hebrew on a daily basis - as a 2nd language, of course.
Since then Hebrew has changed a lot - even using Tempi, an Indo-European construct which does't exist in Hebrew. So in Modern Hebrew Imperfect is used to allude Western Imperfect and Hebrew Perfect (God only) to allude Western Perfect. The little extra vowel signs, well known from Bible Hebrew, are not in use any longer.
He also told us, that on his latest trip just before the course started Israelis in shops had tried to speak English with him, poor foreigner as he was, whereas 50 years ago on his first stay, people simply didn’t notice… Everyone “broke” ;=)
But in early summer 2000, it was total bewilderment. I didn’t understand a thing. I found neither method nor structure…
This lasted for several weeks, until I got hold of my old Confirmation Bible, a 1967 copy of the 1917 State Bible printed in the Netherlands. Then (after a while) I saw it!
The translations – the much vaunted State translations (the former Bible Commission had been appointed on the 18th May 1773 by Gustaf III, only ending in the early 1920ies with the publishing of the OT Deutero-Canonicals, the last one had been in the working for 15 years by several committees; exegetical; linguistic; literary and so on (but in reality put together by 2 converts to Rome, one "official" one non-official – who converted officially after the fact, ejecting high shrieks of the "Apostasy" of the Swedish Church...) the whole costing some 40 or 70 million Swedish - I never remember which - were different from one another!
There had even been some Rabbis on one of the committées (won't tell you what they thought ;=)
The number of Concepts in 1981 and 1917 – and their translations – simply didn’t correspond.
Not only did the 1917 and 1981 have many more words than the Greek (after all, translations tend to have that, a quota of 115 % seems acceptable, then it becomes an other Gospel ;=) but – counting the Concepts instead of the words, it didn’t add up!
The Greek 1 Cor 6:9-11 has 26 Words to 10 Concepts;
1917 (admittedly pseudo archaic and verbose) has 43 Words to 10 Concepts;
NT 1981 has 35 Words but only 9 Concepts. One Concept was missing, and so were three (3) of the Greek words, following the RSV... (this actually happens a lot with Dynamic Equivalence ;=)
Before I had been just bewildered, now I was dizzy!
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13 kommentarer:
Sorry about the American nut job preaching death to gays; now, why don't you go back to Malmo's huge Muslim community and preach against anti-gay prejudice?
Or are you more worried about Third World Muslims than First World Fundamentalists?
For one thing, I don't speak the dialect, Fred.
And No, I am not at all worried about Muslims coming here from "Third World" to live in peace and quiet. For they do, you know... Most of them are very troubled by Saudi efforts to take power over their existance.
Don't listen to the Propaganda you hear about Malmö or "Old" Europe or Freedom Fries from your beloved ex-VP and the like...
I have worked with Muslims, I live with Muslims (and, not least with "Third World" Christians) here on the outskirts of Stockholm.
They are generally good and decent people. And very moral to boot!
Furthermore, to contrast: Fundamentalists in Islam (the Taliban of Afghanistan apart) neither have power or anything else.
The so called "Christian" ones do...
Destroying your country first: think Intelligent Design - n o t intelligent ;=)
And they are very few over here. Marginal - not marginalized.
I don't know about other parts of the country, but "Intelligent Design" would be laughed at where I live.
I have no idea what "Old Europe" is.
Fundamentalists in Iran don't have power? Have you tried taking Salman Rushdie on a book tour?
Which "Christian" fundamentalists do you mean? Are you seriously worried that Pat Robertson is going to get his hands on an atom bomb?
Even for a believer in a shrinking church, in a shrinking population ("We'd better be nice to the Muslims now so that they'll be nice to us when we're the minority"), you're fooling yourself.
It wasn't Baptists who hijacked planes on 9/11 here or 7/7 in England.
Your quote about Freedom Fries is childish; that was six years ago and nobody refers to them like that now. C
Sweden hasn't had an empire for years, but Sweden isn't so much good as helpless; congratulating the Nordic countries for not invading anyone would be like praising a eunuch for never committing rape.
I, too, have lived with Muslims and worked with them. I've been to Muslim lands. Nice people, but the governments are corrupt, even more corrupt than Italy or Greece.
Do you think there's a chance that once they become a majority in your country, that your country will become less efficient and more corrupt?
Not listening Fred?
I said: beware of Murcan propaganda! Especially the people without passports telling everybody else how things are.
I am talking of the last 8 years...
"Old Europe" and "Freedom Fries" are the words of y o u r corrupt regime. They didn't go down well here.
Pretending otherwise doesn't help.
And no, Islam will never be in the majority here. Certainly not the kind promoted from Saudi Arabia, your allies.
Muslims in Sweden generally are not Wahabites, generally distrust the Saudi regime and generally don't want them here. They are seen as a problem! For all.
Goran, if you want to accuse me of being personally responsible for 'the regime' go ahead. I have no idea what you mean when you say that I'm 'pretending otherwise'.
Are you sure Islam will never be the majority in Sweden? If so, ok, but would it bother you to live in a Muslim majority country? In a catholic majority country?
Saudi Arabia is a convenience for the US, like Sweden selling iron ore and letting troops pass to Nazi Germany.
I am absolutely aware that there are differences among Muslims, but being lectured by the upper middle class and and employed in marginalized organizations in (formerly)homogeneous countries is always an experience I relish.
I don't listen to people without passports. I've had one and used it all my adult life. If you're suggesting that I am a conservative evangelical gun nut, please provide evidence. I couldn't give a rat's ass about Cheney or Bush or Rumsfeld, so please don't mention them.
If you can't provide evidence, shut up. Get a life, get a real job and stop telling me that I have to spend thousands of dollars of my money just because you say that there's a big guy in the sky who tells you so.
And you still haven't answered any of my questions: "Old Europe" for one. Do you think that Sweden will become less efficient and more corrupt as the percentage of immigrants increases?
But maybe I'm being unfair. Dealing with numbers (reality, in other words)may lead me to have exaggerated expectations for people who talk to the air and read books written by Bronze Age nomads and expect any enlightenment from them.
Dear Fred,
You are still not very listening.
“Goran, if you want to accuse me of being personally responsible for 'the regime' go ahead. I have no idea what you mean when you say that I'm 'pretending otherwise'.”
I don’t. But it seems to me you pretend that they didn’t exist and that they didn’t leave their Mark on the World during their time in Power. This once also, you claim you "couldn't give a rat's ass about Cheney or Bush or Rumsfeld, so please don't mention them.”
Didn't make them go away...
“Are you sure Islam will never be the majority in Sweden? If so, ok, but would it bother you to live in a Muslim majority country? In a catholic majority country?”
It would not bother me at all. I already told you so. As for Roman catholic countries, I have been living for short periods in France and Spain…
In France I lived with folks who were deeply faithful to their church; "Très Lourdes" as a fiancée in one of the families put it...
They had no trouble with me and I had no trouble with them. No trouble whatsoever.
“Saudi Arabia is a convenience for the US, like Sweden selling iron ore and letting troops pass to Nazi Germany.”
Thank you for that one ;=)
My family was firmly on the other side... To the point of smuggling fugitives across the Sea from Denmark.
O, for the dark nights of August!
Given the number of "Allies"; the Coalition of the un-willing", as it seemed to be ;=) your relationship with Saudi Arabia seems to me somewhat more than simply a “marriage of convenience”.
My Grandmother told me about those among their friends...
“I am absolutely aware that there are differences among Muslims, but being lectured by the upper middle class and and employed in marginalized organizations in (formerly) homogeneous countries is always an experience I relish.”
Surely, 95 % isn't marginal?
Remember, contrasting with the Church of England at prayer or the Roman catholic in France, the Church of Sweden always seems to have been a Majority church...
“I don't listen to people without passports. I've had one and used it all my adult life. If you're suggesting that I am a conservative evangelical gun nut, please provide evidence. I couldn't give a rat's ass about Cheney or Bush or Rumsfeld, so please don't mention them.”
You don’t listen to people without passports? You’ve replicated their propaganda, dear Fred; Muslim take-over, and so on. That isn’t listening???
“If you can't provide evidence, shut up.” Straw man. A Murcan expression that irritates me “no way”.
“Get a life, get a real job and stop telling me that I have to spend thousands of dollars of my money just because you say that there's a big guy in the sky who tells you so.”
I have a life, nor have I told you to spend you dollars on any big guy in the sky.
"Pie in the sky" is not what we (the Church) beleives in. The sect does - or pretends, for socially disciplining causes...
“And you still haven't answered any of my questions: "Old Europe" for one. Do you think that Sweden will become less efficient and more corrupt as the percentage of immigrants increases?”
No, I don’t. Haven’t I told you so?
“But maybe I'm being unfair. Dealing with numbers (reality, in other words) may lead me to have exaggerated expectations for people who talk to the air and read books written by Bronze Age nomads and expect any enlightenment from them.”
Well, I don’t particularly care for numbers, being dyslectic and dyscalculia. I don’t think they represent “reality” in a very good way.
Also, being a Lutheran Priest I remain sceptical as to the Calvinist and Roman “Ideas” of a “Free will”, as well.
It seems to me not much is “Free”. It seems to me, usually what people mean by “Free will” and “I will”, is no more than unconsciously adhearing to the latest cultural/fashion â la mode…
Maybe I should add, for clarity's sake, that Sweden has been an Immigrant country for well over a thousand years.
Already at Birka, the 9th century market place under Royal protection, there were a lot of Muslim artefacts (and heaps of coins) and a small Buddha to boot as well as (Eastern) crosses.
Those artifacts could have been brought home by Swedes who visited those places or traded to get them because they looked interesting.
And the percentage of peoples from other countries, especially so different from your own, has rarely, if ever, been so high.
If you tell your wife, "We've had a cat ever since we got married 20 years ago. Why don't we add a few elephants as pets?" would be the same line of reasoning.
95% of Swedes stay away from your church except for funerals. They seem to be willing to do anything for the church except go to it.
Tell me what I've done personally.
I'll praise you or blame you for the same reasons. It's great what your ancestors did to save Jews from Nazi-occupied Denmark. But you probably were either not alive or not in a position to either help or save anyone during the war.
Blaming people for what their governments do feels great. It makes us feel superior, as if we could never do anything so evil or stupid.
But its effects are usually very small. They will either agree with us-in which case, lecturing them does nothing except preach to the already converted.
Or it makes them angry with you and even more likely to do things with which you disagree.
In effect, you blame people for the country or time into which they were born.
Suppose I had a guest from Iran. If I left a copy of The Satanic Verses on the table and told him "This is something your horrible government tried to have stopped. In fact, you tried to have the author murdered." do you think that would be a good thing to do? If I asked him "Why do your women have to wear so much clothing, even when it's hot?" would that be useful?
Or can you only to it to countries, like the USA, which are wealthy?
You get angry at people who are more like you but treat other cultures with special care, as if you either feel guilty or you're afraid of them.
You should be consistent.
I don't follow.
About the artefacts; no, we don'd know exactly who brought them to Birka. Why should we? Isn't the interesting thing that they are there?
The percentage of immigrants was higher around 1700. What of it? Still the numbers-game?
Nationality as a political issue was not yet invented. Being a loyal Subject to the Crown (which in its turn was not very loyal ;=) was what mattered.
What is it you are trying to say?
It's an interesting thing, but you said that Sweden had been an immigrant country for a thousand years. If these artifacts hadn't been brought by immigrants, but by Swedes trading or collecting, then it has nothing to do with immigration.
In 1700, the immigrants coming in assimilated within two generations. They had cultures much closer to their new neighbors than Sweden's immigrants do today.
Please don't ask me rhetorical questions. It means that you think the question has already been answered. It's intellectually dishonest.
Nationality as a political issue is relatively recent-difference as a social reality has been around since the neanderthals and cro-magnons met up.
What do you say to Muslims when they do things with which you disagree? Do you criticize their governments as intensely as you criticize governments in the west?
If there's no big guy in the sky, where do you get the authority to tell me what to do?
What Straw Man? Provide evidence that I'm wrong-or the argument has to end. It's not church-you can't stand in the pulpit and tell people "Believe this because I tell you so."
You haven't told me to spend money?
You don't advocate Sweden's welfare system for the US? It wouldn't cost me anything? Wow-you really don't like numbers, do you! You truly can't count.
I haven't replicated anyone's propaganda. I didn't even vote for Cheney/Bush.
It was a majority church-when people had to belong to it on pain of fines or imprisonment. Now it's about 3-6% of the population, and the rest show up just for funerals and the occasional wedding. Pitiful.
And I'm an agnostic, so please stop blaming me for the idiocies of the 'sects'-of which your church is, statistically, now one, both here in the US and in Sweden.
When only 3-5% of your country's population goes to your church, it's a sect, no matter how many buildings it has scattered around. If the Church of Sweden were a Volvo, we would say that it's running on fumes.
You're not a Priest-please don't hand me that Neo-Lutheran, High Church nonsense.
If there's no free will and we echo what we hear, no wonder nobody goes to your churches and your clergy are reduced to doing funerals and 'echoing' the propaganda of the Left as much as the 'sects' echo the propaganda of the Right.
Clearly the church of Sweden is one of its more inefficient state-owned corporations if it can afford to pay you a salary.
Maybe we shall call it a day?
But do try to get out of your pre-conceptions...
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